JoomlaWorks

Member Dashboard
  • Home
  • Extensions
    • Commercial
      • Frontpage Slideshow
      • K2 Plugin for sh404SEF
      • Simple Image Gallery Pro
      • SocialConnect
    • Free
      • K2
      • AllVideos
      • DISQUS Comments for Joomla!
      • IAKI (Import As K2 Image)
      • Quick Menu (for Joomla 4)
      • Simple Image Gallery
      • Simple RSS Feed Reader
    • Free On Github
      • Akismet for Kunena
      • Fill It Up
      • K2 Example Plugin
      • K2 Links for JCE
      • Rebuild K2 Image Cache (CLI utility for K2)
      • TinyLetter Subscribe
      • URL Normalizer
      • User Extended Fields for K2
  • Templates
    • Commercial Templates
      • Anagram
      • Archetype
      • BusinessOne
      • Ibento
      • Janaro
      • Kiji
      • Matchbox
      • nuMuzik
      • RadioWave
      • Toreda
    • Free Templates
      • nuModusVersus
      • Takai
  • Demos
    • Joomla Extension Demos
    • Joomla Template Demos
    • WordPress Plugin Demos
  • Labs
    • Web Apps
      • JSON 2 JSONP
      • Feed Reader (bookmarklet)
      • Device Info
  • Support
    • Documentation for Joomla Extensions
      • AllVideos
      • Frontpage Slideshow
      • Simple Image Gallery
      • Simple Image Gallery Pro
      • SocialConnect
    • Documentation for Joomla Templates
      • General Resources
        • Installation
        • Content
        • Customization
      • Commercial Templates
      • Free Templates
    • Get Help
      • Community Forum
        • Recent Topics
        • Categories
        • Create free account
      • Help Desk
      • Contact us by e-mail
      • Contact us on Facebook Messenger
      • Contact us on Twitter
  • About
    • Blog
    • Company
    • License & Terms of Service
    • Privacy Policy
  • My Account
12 04 2010
Written by  JoomlaWorks
Published in Blog
Tagged under
  • +joomla 2.0
  • +opinion
31 comments

The road to Joomla v2.0 may not be as far as you think

The road to Joomla v2.0 may not be as far as you think
Let's get practical.

What does Joomla 1.6 bring to the average Joomla user? In practical terms: not much

In reality it introduces a troublesome ACL, enhancements to the core of 1.5 with the addition of the jXtended libraries (already available for 1.5), there are framework changes that do make the extension of forms easier in the backend (but this is something do-able even now with some PHP, no biggie) and some tidbits here and there. Oh, not to forget! The admin theme is now blue-ish.

Meanwhile WordPress and Drupal show significant signs of improvement and at least indicate that the people behind them take the future of their CMS very seriously. Although I don't generally agree with their marketing model, they're doing one hell of a job "distracting" people to them, when Joomla is far superior "by design" from these CMSs ladies and gentlemen. Just try developing your first plugin, module or whatever in Drupal or WordPress! Ha!

Back to the Joomla world, what's the status of 1.6? Well, let's just say it's possibly not coming in 2010. There are many things that simply cannot move forward for many reasons:

  • too much bureaucracy?
  • lack of professional involvement to stir goals and development
  • boredom
  • lack of money to support development

There may be more and -don't get me wrong- they are valid reasons, cause, hey, it's not a perfect world.

"So what's your point?" you may ask...

My point is this: forget about Joomla 1.6. Move on to Joomla 2.0.

How do we do that? We take 1.5 and we supercharge it:

  • separate components into standalone applications and minimize dependance between components and the core of Joomla
  • remove all the garbage (weblinks, newsfeeds, polls etc.)
  • introduce the concept of "installation profiles", e.g. install Joomla from scratch to use as a blog or portal or whatever you want. Make it easy for professional integrators and template designers to pack websites easily. It's no biggie. This can lead to different "sample data" packages and content setups.
  • improve the current framework in very specific points. Fix any bugs (e.g. modules not being able to attach stuff to the <head> of the document when the cache is on"
  • improve performance. The work is there. Klas has pointed out the weaknesses of the current caching layer. Add his fixes in and move on. Next stop will be to better handle application load (and server load) when we have cases where users need to be logged in and therefore the cache cannot work. Maybe a mechanism to select which elements to cache or a mechanism similar to what Ning uses: Cache everything and attach some query strings to certain user-interaction related links so that the application fetches fresh content. This is a simple, tried and tested way.
  • Create a unified installer for everything. Use the concept of the manifest.xml file to install 1,2,3 or 12 extensions at a time. That way you can install a plugin and 2 accompanying modules without telling the user to install them separately or write a component to act as the intermediate.
  • Forget com_content. Want more? Use K2 for core content. It's completely separated from the core yet 100% tied to the framework. It doesn't suck with menu item ids. It's veeery familiar to com_content. This will boost 1.5's features to 2.0-ish and slap Drupal and WordPress in the face. Think comments and tags and basic content ACL is difficult? Come on? It's all about decision making.
  • Internationalization: include the excellent "unicode slugs" plugin from Jean-Marie Simonet to create unicode capable URLs. It's here already and it's free under GPL.
  • Extend the default "content elements" for all extensions so that less experienced devs can create a simple plugin that has a "content category" selector which doesn't suck.
  • Improve the media manager a bit with the addition of more actions. Upload and delete is not enough.
  • Add a new admin template that just doesn't suck. There are many people out there that have fresh ideas and can significantly help. Sticking to the same Mambo-like pattern just doesn't cut it anymore.
  • Make all Joomla 1.5 extensions and templates MVC capable so that template devs can rip the thing out and create amazing templates both for the frontend and the backend.

There are more to be added of course and I got a whole list for that, but these are the most important perhaps.

The key word here of course is "initiative". I believe that software development is like real life relationships. If you drag the thing over and over it will eventually lead to a break up. You have to be able to transform when circumstances demand.

What are your thoughts?

P.S. For those trying to read "between the lines", no, I'm not talking about a fork of Joomla I'm talking about advancing Joomla and how I'd like to see things for v2.0. Jeez...

Read 164823 times

31 comments

  • Zahir Mirza Zahir Mirza 20 Apr 2010
    Comment Link



  • GuidedHelp GuidedHelp 13 Apr 2010
    Comment Link


    I for one do not see any real value with 1.6 as it stands and most if not all of the features can already be reproduced with extensions already out there and far better too. And as someone said moving from 1.0 to 1.5 was a pain but worth it. Moving from 1.5 to 1.6 will also be a pain and probably not worth it and thus the take up might not be that great. There are a hell of a lot of great developers out there and certainly from what I'm reading here they certainly seem to be up to the challenge of contributing for what we all believe are truely usable features which will certainly take joomla forward and allow it to remain a great platform for the future. I'm not saying we drop what's been done for 1.6 but i do think we should pull some of it out and focus on a more worthy upgrade and feature path which is V2. To do it in a month? Sure I'm not saying its impossible but I don't think that's the point. I just think it should be done. Otherwise we will be waiting several months more for 1.6 to be finished and probably a whole year more just to get to 2.0. By then wordpress and others will be even more advanced than they are now. I think its pretty severe to talk about a fork but when there is talk about a fork then the fact that that question has arose is not a good thing and says enough in itself. Typed this without much net connection on a crapberry. Sorry!

  • Amy Stephen Amy Stephen 13 Apr 2010
    Comment Link


    Herman - I have been working on that problem with Tamka. At first, I tried to carefully adapt things by including code here and there, instead of rewriting it. With those techniques, I was able to DRY out the application, but I still couldn't unearth the reuse I knew the MVC promised. So, I got radical and restructured the folder system to remove the application and extension constraints and from those changes come the huge benefits and flexibility I was looking for. Later this week, I will share a post on some of this because I find it to be the #1 goal for 2.0 -- from these architectural changes many of the problems we hope to solve are made are easier.

    Brian - these changes do not impact the user experience. You can still have an application for the frontend and the backend. But, it is not necessary to have two models. Create, read, update, and delete do not need to be coded twice to do these actions with two different templates and layouts. In fact, the presentation can be far more flexible with these changes. It's easy for me to offer users parameters so that their page can be as they wish, too.

    Herman - keep going - you are heading the right direction.


  • HermanPeeren HermanPeeren 13 Apr 2010
    Comment Link


    @Brian: I'm not talking about the interface or appearance but about the underlying architecture (and code redundancy) of a seperate administrator-part.

    We've talked about it before (http://www.alltogetherasawhole.org/profiles/blogs/joomla-20" rel="nofollow">http://www.alltogetherasawhole.org/profiles/blogs/joomla-20 and http://groups.google.com/group/joomla-dev-general/browse_thread/thread/18bcc567937bdeeb)" rel="nofollow">http://groups.google.com/group/joomla-dev-general/browse_thread/thread/18bcc5.... I will work it out so I can better show what I mean... or maybe I will have another opinion after the experiment.


  • techjoomla techjoomla 13 Apr 2010
    Comment Link


    Wait a go ! We have been on the Joomla wagon since the Mambo days via @tekdinet .. & you are right.. Joomla could do way better with a more radical approach. The idea of Distros also strikes a chord.. It would be great for novice users to have a distro install to start with..
    We have always felt that though joomla has gone leaps & bounds a framework ( from 1.0) .. it still needs a lot of work as a CMS. Basics like versioning, taxonomy, multi category support are somethings that are a must.

    Another thing that has to be a must is easy up-gradation.. people have had to go the migrate route with 1.0 to 1.5.. 1.5 to 1.6 looks like it will repeat the story..

    The structure has to be finalized now such that ease of upgrade is possible..We have had clients wanting to leave & become apprehensive due to this.

    The wordpress graph has been climbing steadily & Joomla 2.0 would be a great way to really push it in the race..


  • brianteeman brianteeman 13 Apr 2010
    Comment Link


    Personally I would always want to have a completely separate interface for site admin work. Sure I might add/edit a content item from the front end but for serious work I'd always want a dedicated interface. Every online app I use that only has a single interface always seems to be compromised by this

  • HermanPeeren HermanPeeren 13 Apr 2010
    Comment Link


    When I say 'The "back-end" doesn't need to be anything more than a template', I mean: it is just some * collection * of components with which you can manage the data. I didn't mean the word 'template' as another skin in Joomla.

  • HermanPeeren HermanPeeren 13 Apr 2010
    Comment Link


    For Joomla2.0 I'd like to elaborate the idea of putting away the distinction between administrator-side and front-end. I think that distinction is obsolete. In the framework there is no need for a back-end. In the CMS you have extensions that can do something with content; it depends on your rights what you are allowed to do with the content (read, write, edit, delete). So, a good ACL is the basis. The "back-end" doesn't need to be anything more than a template. I think it is annoying and unnecessary to divide code of one extension between a front-end and back-end (and modules and plugins, but that has been said before).

  • Amy Stephen Amy Stephen 13 Apr 2010
    Comment Link


    @agosense shared a link to today's Seth's blog that hit home, and I wanted to share it here - the post was entitled "There is no tribe of normal" - read it - it's awesome. http://sethgodin.typepad.com/seths_blog/2010/04/there-is-no-tribe-of-normal.html" rel="nofollow">http://sethgodin.typepad.com/seths_blog/2010/04/there-is-no-tribe-of-normal.html

    Favorite line: "If you're trying to build a tribe, a community or a movement, and you want it to be safe and beyond reproach at the same time, you will fail."


  • CMSExpo CMSExpo 13 Apr 2010
    Comment Link


    Fotis is Mr Innovation, but he walks the talk too.

  • astroboysoup astroboysoup 13 Apr 2010
    Comment Link


    Very interesting comments there and lots of good points and features I'd love to see in a new version of Joomla.

  • Chris_Raymond Chris_Raymond 12 Apr 2010
    Comment Link


    Fotis you make some interesting points. I do believe Joomla is moving too slow and perhaps not in the right direction. I worked with Wordpress and Drupal, and I prefer Joomla - but I can't help getting a little envious of the progress of WP and Drupal. Is Joomla destined to become a smaller player in the open source CMS world!?!? I hope not as its such a great CMS with tons of potential.

  • klas_bzzzz klas_bzzzz 12 Apr 2010
    Comment Link


    The whole architecture needs to be modularized. One component , plugins and modules .. - perhaps this was ok in 04, but is seriously obsolete today. Who needs CCK? Nobody, if the base architecture adopts it's logic. Multiple modular mini applications pluggable in eachother running side by side on one or multiple pages/sites and with ability to display content in multiple template areas and on multisites. Sites as wider and pages inside them as narrower profiles. Install 1 joomla, 10 mini-applications, define profiles for sites and pages..and attach templates to any of them. Click click, 20 sites done.

  • nikosdion nikosdion 12 Apr 2010
    Comment Link


    Can you send me a poster size photo of your team? I want to put it on my wall :D

    Seriously, I knew it was that easy. It always got to me that this thing is missing ever since the Mambo days and noone cared to fix it. As a thought exercise, I tried to solve this. In theory, I would have to create a component and use a system plug-in to strap the Real Preview button on the editor's toolbar. Well, I'd rather skin a cat than do that. Who knows, I might do that some night before going to bed ;)


  • Fotis Evangelou Fotis Evangelou 12 Apr 2010
    Comment Link


    @nikosdion Previewing could be as simple as opening a modal with the user logged in and the article in "unpublished" to public users mode. Something done already in K2 v2.3 (coming) but from the frontend :) You didn't expect that, did you? Haha!

  • nikosdion nikosdion 12 Apr 2010
    Comment Link


    Julio, I think you forgot to add a link.

    Fotis, I forgot something MAJOR which is part of, say, WordPress: real preview of an article. I mean, as it would appear on the front-end with a given Itemid. Many people can't correlate what they write in the editor with how it will look on the page and get very grumpy about it. This is a trivial and essential feature to have, isn't it?


  • Fotis Evangelou Fotis Evangelou 12 Apr 2010
    Comment Link


    Keep those ideas coming people ;)

  • k2joom k2joom 12 Apr 2010
    Comment Link


    My two pennies.
    Why cant extensions share a common js, instead of every one loading its own one and bloating page loads, I don't want to have to do that manually.
    Allow ability for better extension css management through the backend.

    Better Joomla installer that allows inclusion of my own sample data, plus ability to load default demo modules to a predefined layout.
    Agree with unified installer instead to load com, plugin and mod seperatley.
    I would really also like to see JCE become default editor, how many ditch mce on every install?
    I would also like to be able to batch install a variety of components all in one go, currently JCE, K2, SH404SEF, SIG, Chronoforms, Google Analytic, reCaptcha, in fact quite a few of those should also be part of Joomla default.

    Should be thinking about what makes a site dev easier to build a site and also how a regular joe can get their post written from the front end without having to load extras to prevent them messing up the backend..

    Having revisited Wordpress again recently, they have jumped well ahead in terms of how their backend works and lessons should be learned from what they are doing.

    The J! 1.6 alpha I tested, was nothing really new, well the bits that works. Its still the same old backend, with the addition of new and now confusing icons. IMHO, Crisp from Joomlabamboo adds a clean modern feel, yet retains some familiarity of it being a joomla backend.

    We will all have our own opinions, wants, needs etc, but at very least, those that are being repeatedly requested by the devs and the users are the ones that should be taken in to account first.

    Joomla to warp factor 2.0 Scotty!!


  • juliopontes juliopontes 12 Apr 2010
    Comment Link


    @nikosdion I have thinked about this modular system and I have some of this Idea here..

  • nikosdion nikosdion 12 Apr 2010
    Comment Link


    Fotis, even now it's possible to build custom distros (JoomlaPack Plus and Akeeba Backup Pro can do that) but you have to drag along all the useless core stuff (weblinks, polls, newsfeeds, com_content if you use K2, ...), which leads to suboptimal and hard to administer sites.

    Detaching everything from the core means that the core is a framework and has a lightweight, modular back-end interface where you can "strap on" any kind of extensions. This also implies that we need a way to define workflows so as to construct a back-end GUI suitable for each installation type. So, this is the major architecture change required for Joomla 2.0: modularizing the monolithic back-end. Once this is done, it's easy to implement everything we talk about.


  • Start
  • Prev
  • 1
  • 2
  • Next
  • End

Leave a comment

Make sure you enter all the required information, indicated by an asterisk (*). HTML code is not allowed.

back to top
BY MAIL BY RSS

Archives

  • May 2024 (1)
  • March 2023 (1)
  • January 2022 (1)
  • July 2021 (2)
  • May 2021 (1)
  • February 2021 (1)
  • December 2020 (1)
  • September 2020 (1)
  • June 2020 (1)
  • May 2020 (1)
  • February 2020 (1)
  • January 2020 (5)

Tag Cloud

allvideos announcement apache community development frontpage slideshow future joomla k2 Performance plugin release sh404sef simple image gallery simple image gallery pro simple rss feed reader socialconnect tips update video

Latest Entries

  • K2 will not be made available for Joomla 4/5 - change of course
    Written by  JoomlaWorks
    30 May 2024
  • New free extension release: Quick Menu (for Joomla 4)
    Written by  JoomlaWorks
    06 Mar 2023
  • Simple Image Gallery (free) v4.2 released
    Written by  JoomlaWorks
    07 Jan 2022
  • Simple Image Gallery Pro v3.9.1 released (bug-fix release)
    Written by  JoomlaWorks
    26 Jul 2021
  • Simple Image Gallery Pro v3.9.0 released
    Written by  JoomlaWorks
    05 Jul 2021

Join Our Newsletter

Enter your e-mail address to subscribe to our new or updated product notifications. We send combined newsletters, so we won't spam you every week :)

Get Social

  • Twitter
  • GitHub
  • Facebook
  • GitHub (K2)
  • YouTube
  • Speaker Deck

Grab Our Feeds

  • Extension Updates
  • Blog
  • Videos
  • Presentations
Copyright © 2006 - 2025 JoomlaWorks Ltd.
JoomlaWorks Ltd. and this site is not affiliated with or endorsed by The Joomla! Project™. Any products and services provided through this site are not supported or warrantied by The Joomla! Project or Open Source Matters, Inc. Use of the Joomla!® name, symbol, logo and related trademarks is permitted under a limited license granted by Open Source Matters, Inc.
designed by Nuevvo