JoomlaWorks

96 comments

• brianteeman 05 Feb 2011
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  Apologies if my comment yesterday appeared to be rude and short but I see little value in writing 1000 words when 10 will do. I was trying to say that if Fotis has decided not to rewrite K2 for Joomla 1.6 then the GPL gives you the freedom to do it yourself. That is one of the four freedoms that the GPL gives you. The GPL doesn't give you the freedom to require a developer to do anything.
  
• jen4web 05 Feb 2011
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  A revision to my comment regarding PLT discussing needs with business community:

  PLT did ask for feedback from everyone here (Sept 24, 2010):
  http://community.joomla.org/blogs/leadership/1296-rfc-joomla-development-strategy.html" rel="nofollow">http://community.joomla.org/blogs/leadership/1296-rfc-joomla-development-stra...

  This also contains a link to the PLT vision here:
  http://community.joomla.org/images/joomla_development_strategy_draft.pdf" rel="nofollow">http://community.joomla.org/images/joomla_development_strategy_draft.pdf

  PLT discussed this plus feedback at the early October conference.

  This is a good start to a discussion with the business community. It would be nice if the results of the conference were communicated (I did not find that in the blog, presumably because the PLT was busy getting 1.6 out the door).

  It would also be nice if there were continued communications with the business community. Right now, people are afraid to speak out in most cases because they worry about being banned or disliked by the leadership.

  Sure, I worry too, but I worry more about where Joomla is going. There needs to be ongoing discussions between business and leadership. Others also need to be involved, of course -- but when business makes decisions, as important leaders in the Joomla community, others will follow. It's in the PLT's interest to involve as many official and unofficial leaders as possible in the discussion of where they are going to ensure the best outcomes for all.

  Jen

  
  
• intercisa 05 Feb 2011
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  Dear Fotis,
  Please allow me here to respond Amy's first post. I know it's a quite offtopic.

  @Amy Thank you for your lecture about the GPL. You are right.

  Because of my poor English maybe I wasn't so clear. I will try express with some simple words what I wanted to answer to Brian.

  Just figure out the following situation:
  When you are all together with your friends or business partner drinking good beer or whatever else in a pub and one of your partners who has got so much influence to others just has announce a very important decision to others and let the others allow to respond to it.
  Someone is sad and put some expression in the conversation but still with respect to others. Someone is disappointed a little bit and tell you that he/she have to make rework his/her future biz. plan but still in the polite way. But there is someone in the group who can tell the others to go away and do it yourself if you do not like it.

  Can you understand me? I am not English speakers. Who are telling about the rights what to do or not with GPL if we do not like Fotis' decision? Nobody. But Brian is a well-known Joomla authority in the community just like You, Amy and of course Fotis.

  People are reading this 'conversation' and will react or don't. Brian as an evangelist/publicist of the Joomla wrote in a quite rough and unpolite way. His message was clear to us: If you do not like it, you should do it yourself and leave it. Is it a friendly respond? I do not think so.

  I did not want to harm anybody with my previous post.

  There is a little bit chaos in the community lately. Over years and years we got the advice to use always the latest Joomla version because of the security reason. As the 1.6 released we could read how better, stronger and smarter it is. We got the ACL and small useful features too. But nowadays it is said from peaple who we respect and follow that it is not recommended.

  It is my honor to use Akeeba and see how seamless could be an extension upgrade. The 1.6 is a big step foward from 1.5. It is also said that will be the last painfully upgrade in the Joomla system. Should be believe it?

  About Nooku. I am not developer but I like to use Joomla. I do not know so much about Nooku, but if I am not mistaken, it is a developing framework built top on the core Joomla 1.5 framework. It is smart and supported by many developers. It is good for heavy CMS sites in the goverment side and things like that. It will be good for the Joomla as well to be spread via Nooku.
  Ok. But I only want to light to it works only under Joomla 1.5 and I don't know whether will it be port to 1.6 or 1.7 or 1.8 etc or not.

  If K2 will be ported into the umbrella of Nooku and it will still stick with Joomla 1.5 in 2011 up to 2012 because this framework do not need to work with 1.6 maybe we should know more about the future of their plan and we can decide to jump to this train or look after other appropriate solution for us.

  The official release circle is clear. You could see what Rian said at JoomlaNight in Sweden here:
  http://bambuser.com/channel/Svenska+Joomlaf%25C3%25B6reningen/broadcast/1384668" rel="nofollow">http://bambuser.com/channel/Svenska+Joomlaf%25C3%25B6reningen/broadcast/1384668

  I would be glad to relay this future of Joomla

  Thank you for your attention and respect to all of you.

  Have a nice weekend,
  Robert

  
  
• TerraceMedia 05 Feb 2011
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  I've spent some time in the Joomla Bug Squad (not as a significant contributor, to be sure). Based on that experience and all our volunteerism in the project, we decided as a company ages ago that while Joomla 1.6 represents a leap forward in the development of our CMS, we would be highly unlikely to build a site with it.

  As Fotis points out, Joomla 1.5 is highly stable and an adequate solution for most CMS-driven websites. 1.6 introduces new features that are a bit shaky still, does not address all our desires for next-generation CMS (native comments across all components, usability testing, elegant and spare admin templating, etc.), does not have a long release cycle, and has been created in an atmosphere of contention. It's sad that the community had such a hard time working with each other that the PLT ended up removing several of our most creative software engineers from this contributing to the release. That's a net loss to us all, and one reason we jokingly call 1.6 'Joomla ME' among ourselves here. The next version will improve things, I'm sure.

  The new release cycle is good--it means a lot of our needs will be addressed going forward and the solidity of the system will improve. And we'll choose to use the releases which are highly secure and offer the most flexibility in terms of extensions developed for it. That's 1.5 for now. In the meantime, we're far more excited about the potential the Molajo distribution has for our business. And Nooku has long had my interest--the people behind it are brilliant--and K2 adding it as a platform may be the impetus I personally need to learn more about Nooku.

  
  
• brianteeman 05 Feb 2011
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  I have written it before so I won't copy/paste - you can read it here http://brian.teeman.net/joomla-gps/roles-and-responsibilities-of-users-and-community-members.html" rel="nofollow">http://brian.teeman.net/joomla-gps/roles-and-responsibilities-of-users-and-co...
  
• torkilj 05 Feb 2011
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  @fititnt: People are allowed to criticize Joomla all they want, especially on their own blog. Trying to make us all stand in line, bow and wave so not to rock the J-boat seems very Moubarak-like of you. A lot of people have jumped ship and started using Nooku already. It was only a matter of time before also a big component like K2 followed along. If you want to look at how decent and beautiful MVC could be, you should check out Nooku's HMVC.

  Actually, the fact of the matter is, that a lot of people that have also actively participated in Joomla 1.6 development have spoken out both against the shipped product and the process of building it. Both core developers and people from the bug squad left to join the Nooku and Molajo projects instead.

  I understand very well why Fotis is criticizing, and it is not because the CMS is now "evolving too fast for him". 1.6 is just a number, as will 1.7 be in 6 months, to give you the appearance of development happening at a steadier pace. When you say that it's just the developers this CCK who criticizes the faster release cycles, you couldn't be more wrong either. Just look at the comments in this thread.

  Seems to me like people that are "pro" Joomla 1.6 are telling people who are criticizing Joomla 1.6 development to not do so too loudly, because they don't want to pop out of their little imaginary bubble of CMS bliss and happiness, which they even may or may not have invested money to be in. My advice to you: Cut your losses, jump on the Nooku train.

  …and no, I do not get paid by Nooku.

  
  
• torkilj 05 Feb 2011
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  Amy, about that beer bet… it's on.
  
• nightshiftc 05 Feb 2011
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  Now that 1.6 is out and to further prove our point on "practical ACL", we plan to roll either a new component or a system plugin to allow Joomla 1.5 and K2 users to control even "content viewing" in the frontend for guests or registered users. Maybe we'll even work on a cool solution for the backend of Joomla 1.5 as well...
  
• christianhent 05 Feb 2011
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  Fotis is a practical man. Sometimes he sounds hard, but he sounds clear. This is very fine and worthy, because he knows about what he speaks. And yes, he has balls. Please do not confuse this with flame and blame.
  
• pmichelazzo 05 Feb 2011
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  How I say at Teeman's blog (and I agree with Jen), Joomla left the "hobby" face many years ago (2005, did you remember?). Now, is more than just developers and designers. We have a big ecosystem around it; writers, instructors, services companies, etc, etc etc. So, how these people can work with the pressure of a new version each 6 months? What can I say for clients each 6 months? "Hey, you need to training again your people" or more fun "Hey, you need to buy the new release of my book because it's cover the new version too". Fun and... sad!

  Sorry, I'm not a hard developer and/or a hard designer but I'm looking for every side. 6 months is nice for kids playing programming or making experiments, but for business... where? I don't know one company in the world that like this kind of schedule. CIO's love strong, tested and old versions of it's programs. You don't believe on it? Check how many Internet Explorer 6 we have on the web or check how many websites running Joomla 1.x version. You can be crazy with the numbers.

  If we like to see Joomla in big companies we need to play the same game. Check it out with CIO's near of you. Ask them what they think about a hard schedule like this and the answer could be a sign to the right path.

  Cheers!

  
  
• PufferMedia 05 Feb 2011
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  I just spent an hour writing a really long reaction to this post. Fortunately I refreshed before I copy 'n' pasted that epic. @jen4web speaks clearly and gives some needed perspective. I'm glad I read that before I joined the fray.

  I'm going to take a little time to see how this shakes out, so I'll sleep on the the epic post.

  Suffice to say, as someone who has used K2 to construct content on more than a couple of websites (and, yes, has purchased other JoomlaWorks extensions) this is a disconcerting announcement, both in its content and its subtext. This will effect the site I build tomorrow, the site I pitch to my next client.

  I just need to decide what I have to add to the discussion that is useful and constructive.

  
  
• fititnt 05 Feb 2011
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  Among the hundreds of developers of extensions, it is not strange, just that developers of CCK, which says that his extension now is able to to more than is possible with Joomla 1.6 and will also do more than will be possible with Joomla 1.7, it is precisely those who criticize a faster cycle of evolution of the CMS?

  I'm having serious difficulty trying to understand until with point the criticism is because how hard if upgrande or implicitly by not wanting the CMS to evolve rapidly, and even may have native characteristics in core of one CCK.

  @JoomlaWorks I can, and hopefully, be wrong in my assumptions. But after read here, is this that I'm thinking. But I full agree with the idea do next versions make a better layer of compatibility with extensões for old Joomla versions, and also really try help the developers to make it easy to upgrande, even if just with good documentation, and is just in something like this that I will look more on next months, but, I will say again: o my opinion, I full desagree that evolue less faster the CMS

  @AmyStephen, I'm sure that what I wrote was a little heavy, but I'm not sure if being a little heavy is unnecessary. If, for example, in Brazil, the most influential people in the community discouraging the use of a new version, it will not be used. And yes, a lot of people is reading this text, and will read it for next months

  
  
• jen4web 05 Feb 2011
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  Hi all -- since you've mentioned me, I feel like I should jump in.

  When engineers manage a project, you get Joomla. Absolutely brilliant software engineering. Unfortunately, you also get dismal management.

  Joomla's "6 month" release plan is patterned after Ubuntu's:
  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Releases" rel="nofollow">https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Releases

  However, Ubuntu has longer end of life dates for their server software than their desktop software. Why? Because servers are a pain in the rear to upgrade and there's a lot of stuff that could break when they're upgraded. There is no one year support cycle for any of Ubuntu's products, not from what I see on that page.

  Same is true for a CMS website: lots of stuff can break when it's upgraded.

  The reasons for a 6 month release cycle might make sense from an engineering perspective. Joomla has never released often. Releasing every 6 months gives Joomla the appearance of moving forward. New features can be included on a rapid schedule. There isn't time to bicker about what goes into the next version. A new release is right around the corner, so that feature can be included next time.

  However, Joomla is not just about the software. You must also consider the users who must learn new interfaces, the people who write documentation (wiki, books, videos, classes), the sites that already exist in one version or another, and all of the businesses who derive a living from Joomla. There are 20 million websites running Joomla today, most of them on 1.5. What happens to them next?

  Releasing new versions of software every 6 months, then supporting them for 12 months, is a nightmare from a business perspective. The full ramifications of this are only now being considered by Joomla businesses.

  Did the PLT talk to anyone in a major (or minor) Joomla business before starting this new release cycle? Or did they make decisions based on what they thought was best -- essentially ignoring the symbiotic relationship that they have with those businesses?

  In order for Joomla to make a 6 month release cycle work, the following must be true:

  1. Joomla cannot continue to change core features/functionality up until hours before release. Things must be nailed down sooner than that. Why are there no accurate Joomla 1.6 books out now? There was 6 months of beta, which should be adequate time to write a book. For one, the ACL screens changed until hours before the January 10 launch, and other screens and menus changed through December. Where is the time to document that?

  And how are extensions developers supposed to transition their extensions when something changes with each beta release? Nicholas at Akeeba had to update his extension for each beta. How can anyone plan ahead when the beta cycle changes this much? Devs have no motivation to try to have their extensions ready for the next release when they must code and recode the same things over and over. Since most extensions are free, the time they spend doing this is also uncompensated... and it detracts from billable time.

  2. Joomla must communicate what is required for transitioning extensions sooner before release of the new version. Joomla is lacking good developer documentation. There has been only one developer conference and there is no definitive, comprehensive book or document explaining the entire Joomla framework.

  3. Joomla must have a "one-click" style interface for transitioning from version X to Y. It hasn't happened yet. Every transition from major version to major version to this point has been an ill-documented, ill-defined, poorly executed migration that is full of headaches for all involved. And a "one-click" migration that works for core only, with 3rd party extensions working under some separate/ill-defined system does not count. If extensions are coded properly, they should also transition versions easily. How do we know extensions are coded properly? See point 2 on documentation.

  No, I'm not a coder or engineer and I have absolutely no idea how to make any of this happen. I fully admit that I could be asking for the impossible. But this is what is required to move this community forward. We can't have a painful migration every 6 months. We can't keep releasing software with no documentation available. And the PLT should not continue to make decisions about project direction without involving input from the business community.

  Jen

  
  
• Amy Stephen 05 Feb 2011
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  I understand, Chris. I'll be honest - after five years in this community, I've been on all the various sides of these situations. There are good points everywhere. But, we won't ever pull together if we insist on being right.

  For me, it boils down to two things:

  1. Let's allow people to speak. That goes for Andrew Eddie, himself, to the newest newbie we got. Let's hear what folks say and try to not react with strong emotion even if they are expressing their emotion.

  2. Then, let's fix it. That doesn't mean fixing the person who is frustrated but rather addressing the problem. That means helping.

  Seems like if we can learn to do those two simple things, we'll move mountains.

  OK - that's three posts. Enough from me. Fotis - you know I mean it when I say I'll help.

  
  
• Fotis Evangelou 05 Feb 2011
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  I said we're not gonna be porting K2 to Joomla 1.6, not all our extensions ;) And didn't say "don't upgrade". I said "evaluate your needs, think before upgrading", cause I did ;)
  
  

  
  
• Chris Raymond 05 Feb 2011
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  Oh boy, sorry off the iPad again and back to the laptop. Sorry Fotis for the double posts!

  I think what you see here - and why so many comments posted with negative feelings toward this blog post is because Fotis is a highly respected developer in the Joomla community. I use his extensions(Paid and free) and to read that he doesn't recommend(and others noted above sadly) using Joomla 1.6 isn't recommended. How do we advance this system if we don't use it?

  
  
• Amy Stephen 05 Feb 2011
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  Emerson -

  I think that's a bit heavy - a lot to throw on Fotis's shoulders, don't you think?

  Would it hurt so much if we simply allowed everyone to say their piece? It's certainly just as much your right to disagree and say why, but maybe it's over-dramatizing to suggest that Fotis's blog post could have that kind of negative impact on the future of Joomla.

  Sounds to me like Fotis is discouraged and he shared a post about his feelings and plans. OK. Fine. We are here for you Fotis. What can we do to help?

  Emerson - you are a great voice and spirit in our community - you help make Joomla better. Appreciate you.

  Maybe we can all bring the Joomla drama down a bit.

  
  
• Chris_Raymond 05 Feb 2011
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  And hey, if ACL is more important than content and layout flexibility, there's always Drupal to try. No need to stay with com_content in 2011 ;)
  
• unworthyslave 05 Feb 2011
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  @fititnt, just to clarify, Joomla 1.5 will be supported for 1 year and 3 months (not at least 2 years). I just say that as an fyi for you :-)
  
• unworthyslave 05 Feb 2011
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  @Fotis, I agree 2.0 would have been a better numbering. Also, content is much more important, I agree there as well.

  However, if Joomla is supposed to mean and be “all together” or “as a whole" this post certainly put a rift in that. it was just filled with a bunch of negative remarks and mostly ranting with little or no hope expressed for Joomla's future.

  The major issue as well is that the comments expressed in it are opposite of that articulated officially by Joomla. Any by the way, other are saying hold off migrating (including the core developers) unless there is an absolute need, etc, etc, but they are doing it in a respectful and helpful manner.

  @nikosdion, I value your opinion very much. Your work is genius and basically spotless (there may be a few bugs out there ;-)

  I did read your comment up above (the first one, the other one way written after/while I was writing my last one) before I ever commented and I agree that there is a need for the API to stabilize! So how can we accomplish that? Perhaps you can blog on that specific issue to give as novices some insight and perhaps collectively we might be able to help? I would love to read a blog like that.

  @Amy, I think you should reread my comments. I have never once suggested that Fotis should do it for me or anyone else. I have not once tried to devalue anyone's work and time commitment. My basic arguments were about what was said, not about there decision. If you are going to make snide remarks about my "points" as if they are of no value, at least have the decency of reading them correctly...